Return Source
Interviewee: Arnett T. Doctor

Interviewers: William W. Rogers, Maxine Jones, and Larry E. Rivers
at the Radisson Hotel in Tallahassee Florida
on September 23, 1993.
Introduction: I'll just say out front or up front, first of all, that all of us was involved in this investigation, what we are interested in is something that is very elusive. And what is very elusive is the truth, and its hard to get at no matter how honest you are or whatever your motives are, but just getting the truth.its hard for anybody and I, in thirty-five years or more during active research have never had anything more complicated, more complexed, more emotionally charged, more important, and with such potential for making a statement about it. So, each of us, Larry and Maxine and myself and Mr. Colbert and this young man, he's a remarkable young man. You may know Tom Dye.

Question: Have you and he had any contact with Tom Dye, a graduate student?
Respondent: No, we have not.

Comments from One Interviewer: Well, each of us as an Historian is absolutely fascinated and galvanized by this and we all think its important. We think its important, whatever our limitations are, whatever our abilities are to come up with the truth and to come up with something that is right and good. And we are all prepared and all are making sacrifices to do this and I'm not trying to go out, I'm just saying that we all are without any axes to grind, without any prejudices or without anything except to try to get at the truth. So that's what we are doing and the fact that you have apparently devoted a large part of your life, and I understand that it is a very essential and important part of your life and that you have pursued this kind of thing, and we all appreciate that. And, what we would like to do, I'm for one thing, I'm just curious if you would talk for as much as you would about how did you get it going, how did you talk to your folks and your kin people and how did yall get together as a group and I saw this young man out there with a tee shirt on about the gathering, I talked with a very nice lady who was a Goins who said you got there in Washington and had a fine meeting and on and on. Kind of how all of that get going?
Respondent: Initially, I think it goes back to traditional family gatherings. As we would gather at funerals, there were people who had been affected by Rosewood that would share their experiences with the younger people who did not have the knowledge of it. And there was always a sense of we need to organize to properly put the information in its proper perspective so that those that were not there at the time would have a real clear understanding about Rosewood. My Aunt, Lillian Goodine, who was officially called Aunt Beauty constantly was on us about organizing and so eventually what happened is after the 60 Minutes scoop in July of 1982, we decided to officially organize the Rosewood Family Reunion. That took approximately another four years just to do that. Because there was real strong feelings about bringing up the pain of that, in detail, the older family members did not want to rehash what was so painful for them in their young lives. After awhile, it was agreed upon that we would just meet and not really discuss what happened in Rosewood but just meet at a regular family reunion and celebrate the fact that the entire family was not acknowledged. So, in 1987, Ms. Annie Bell Lee of Lachoochee, Florida formed what was known as the Rosewood Family Reunion.

Question: Is she here today?
Respondent: No, she is not here. At that time the intention was with only as I said before was to meet and to just more or less to celebrate the fact that the family was still connected. Not to discuss the past, not to make any decisions or preparations about pursuing Rosewood in the future. As a matter of fact, pursuing Rosewood in the future was considered a no no. This was something that we had decided that we not do as a matter of fact. No one was really interest in doing that. In 1988, I made the statement to the family that I thought it was a mistake for us not to do it. And at that juncture, I had been collecting information for quite awhile. And I prepared approximately twenty or thirty information packages and passed out to the different families and they could just go home and think about. Let's think about whether or not we should, in fact, bring the past back to the present and ask that it be addressed. Nothing happened for a few years, and finally for some unknown reason, Rosewood began to get attention. Pete Gallagher, Seminole Tribune. Gary Moore, St. Pete Times, a host of different columnists began to write little small articles of Rosewood. And at that time, I eventually decided that Rosewood was not meant to just lay dominant. There was something valuable enough for the State of Florida to leam from. And I presented it in that form to our family. Still, it didn't really happen because my mother was one of the oldest people there that was in Rosewood at the time. She was adamant that this would not happen and she was well respected within the family circle. I respect her tremendously, naturally, I'm her bigger boy, the only boy, so I definitely respected her wishes. But I have a cousin whose name was Lee Ruth Davis out of Miami.

Question: What was her first name?
Respondent: Her name was Lee Ruth Davis. And she shared my conviction and she and I discussed it. What she did was she contacted the Hall and Knight Law Firm, advised them that if there was anything that they could do that she would be most appreciative. They needed someone to do a really thorough investigation. They re-directed the person who was going to do the investigation to me. Hall & Knight didn't know that the people who were going to do the investigation was from the St. Pete Times. But, when he did come to me, I agreed to accompany him to Rosewood and we talked to essentially white people in Rosewood. There were no blacks in Rosewood to talk to, per se. But we talked to several families in Rosewood and got their story as to what happened at that particular time in history and they were very open with us and told us what essentially what did happen. Some was somewhat curious about us but after we left Rosewood, putting all the facts together we then went back and began to interview the African Americans that were affected by Rosewood. An entirely different story materialized. So different that I was somewhat puzzled by the two accounts. And had it not been for two of the members of the Caucasian community validating the African American's claim I would have thought that two groups of people saw something entirely different, that it was just two different incidents. Because there were two separate stories. But like I said, there were people from the Caucasian community that validated the Black claim. And once that was validated, then it became to me, something that I was just obsessed with, that this actually happened and it can not go unreported and it cannot go unaddressed. And at that time I affectively decided that I was going to follow Rosewood until the State of Florida addressed it. And what I found out was that an entire town had been annihilated for no apparent reason other than allegations of an unidentifiable individual. An unidentifiable Black man attacked, robbed a white woman. When I did some follow-up research and found out that this white woman was only 14 years of age at that time of this incident. When I was unable to uncover the profile of her husband, an individual of what I would call typical Southern brutality as it relates to husband and spouse relationships. A woman that was a prisoner in her own home, so to speak, and would say whatever the husband would have her to say and the fact that she could not describe the individual, what the individual looked like or what have you and the fact that my mother and my great grandmother had informed us that or had informed the community that they knew who this individual was but in fact tried to educate the people in the community. I couldn't perceive that all of this could possibly tie true until I saw something similar happen, very similar happen in my own place where I was bom and raised in Lachoochee, Florida. It was at that time that I realized that this was probably true.

Question: Mr. Doctor I'm just intrigued by this, but could we just back up for a little and just tell me a little about your family. You mentioned your mother and your grandmother. Could you give some names and I understand that you are a direct descendent of Rosewood, can you establish that for the record.
Respondent: My grandmother, her name was Sarah Robinson Carrier. Her name was Sarah Robinson. Robinson was her maiden name and her married name was Carrier. She married my great grandfather, Hayward Carrier. They was homesteaders in Rosewood, some of the first people to move into the Rosewood area. My mother name was Philomena Goins at that particular time. My mother was the daughter of Willie Carrier, Willie Retha Carrier, who was Sarah Carrier's daughter. So that's my great grandmother, Sarah Carrier, my grandmother, Willie Carrier and my mother, Philomena Goins because Willie Carrier married George Goins, okay. Sarah Carrier was the woman that was at the particular place when the alleged attack occurred, she was at Fannie Taylor's home.

Question: Was her husband, what was his name? Was it Payton or James?
Respondent: Sarah

Question: Yes
Respondent: Sarah Carrier's husband name was Hayward Carrier.

Question: Now, it was not just your mother but also your grandmother at that particular place?
Respondent: No, my grandmother was not there. It was only my great grandmother and my mother. Let me qualify how they happen to be there. My great grandmother contracted to wash and iron in the Sumner, Florida area. Sumner, Florida was a predominantly white community and it was a sawmill town.

Question: Sumner was a little larger than Rosewood? Is that correct?
Respondent: Yes, definitely. Larger than Rosewood. And that was only because of the sawmill. If you were going to count the inhabitants at the sawmill in the Sumner, Florida area, then yes. But if you were going to count land owners, its a different story. If you were going to count landowners, people that owned land, then Rosewood was by far superior to Sumner.

Question: You mention Rosewood was superior. Could you give us an idea, because we want to get back to how this incident occurred. But could you kind of set the stage for the type of neighborhood or community Rosewood was. The number of blacks there, if there were whites, were there buildings, give us some idea.
Respondent: Rosewood was a predominantly black town. At any given time, there were from 200 to 250 or more people living in Rosewood. Aside from those people there was another area called Goins quarters where another maybe 50 or 60 people lived. They worked for Edmond Goins and Martin Goins who ran the turpentine still in Rosewood. As I said, it was a predominantly black thriving community, very stable. It had, they had built a railroad station, there were three churches there, there was a school, there was a masonic lodge there, there were two stores there, one owned by John Wright, who was the lone white merchant and the other owned by the Hall family. As a matter of fact....

Question: Were the Halls white?
Respondent: No, the Halls are out there now (indicating their presence in another room).

Question: So, they had a store, what kind of store was that?
Respondent: It was a just a little grocery store where people could go and get things that they needed. John Wright's store was by far more larger but the Hall's, C.D. Hall is the name of the gentleman that owned it. Wilson Hall is his son, he is out there now. The Hall's did own a store and what I understand they had a very profitable store. As far as the homes were concerned, the homes were, what I considered well structured homes. Homes of the landowners in Rosewood were well structured. They were not shanties or shacks. Many were two-story buildings, you know, typical southern, colonial-type homes. The majority of the people in Rosewood worked in the turpentine industry. Those that did not work in the turpentine industry worked out at the sawmill or at farming or some did hunting.

Question: Mr. Doctor, in my mind I am trying to reconstruct it and your description is very good. Was Rosewood, I understand the railroad ran, I understand the route of the Railroad and the Railroad station and the Masonic home and the school and the two-story school, the big one-room school there, was there a parallel dirt road that ran through the town, were there streets were there any dissecting streets, were they mainly just kind of strolled out along down the railroad? I'm trying to get how Rosewood looked physically.
Respondent: Honestly, I can't answer that question as to what the road structure was like. I can only say that there was a road that ran parallel to the railroad track. I can say that because the day that the mob came down the track, some came down the track and others came down the road. The day that they descended upon the people in the community and annihilated it, there were children playing in the road on the side of the houses and saw them coming and that tells me that there was definitely a road structure. And, the road was parallel to the railroad. But as to the make up of the road or what have you, I can not intelligently answer that question.

Question: You mentioned that Rosewood was predominantly Black, at any time would you say that Rosewood consisted of 40 percent white or did they move over a period of time to Sumner or Raleigh?
Respondent: It has been reported by some who have done research that the make-up of Rosewood was 50-50, some say 60-40. I can only speak of what my mother told me, there were several of these people out here who were born in Rosewood and reared up in Rosewood and they only attest to the fact that Rosewood was a predominantly black town with a very small amount of whites. Matter-of-fact, there is one person there who was bom and raised there who said they never say more than six whites living in Rosewood at any time. So, that's the best that I can, you know.

Question: To your knowledge, and what seems to me from the work I've done so far, in reading newspapers and depositions and all that, it seems that a large portion of the people - that is - black people owned their property. Is this what you feel or know?
Respondent: That's what I know. I can state unequivocally that that's not a theory, that's a fact. This is a document, a description of legal property and of the names listed here there is only three whites on this page. And the rest of these people are black. And they owned this land. And this information came directly out of the Levy County Courthouse. This is information that the people of Levy County say burned up and destroyed and this came out of the Levy County Courthouse in 1964. And they said it was destroyed 84 years earlier. And this is also a copy of a map of Levy County and for selfish reasons I highlighted the land and area that my grandfather, Edmond Goins, owned and farmed, turpentine farmed, and the area where he housed his workers. And as to whether or not he had workers or not, I had it on good authority from a Ms. Tony Provost, who is a genealogist in Lake Mary, Florida, she sent me information taken from the Census Records of 1900 and 1920 which showed that my grandfather was in turpentine, and a money extracting magnet in Rosewood. And that approximately 40 some odd people worked for him. Well, last week I was down at Watson at the Courthouse and I was going through the deed record and its just incredible the number of real estate transactions that the Goins family was involved in. Another thing that a lot of people are mislead in thinking that the Goins family was in fact enslaved or there were some people, even blacks, who thought that the Goins family was white. In fact, what they were - was Lumbi Indians. They were Americans, and of course because of their complexion, they came to Rosewood from Wilberton County, North Carolina. Documentation will prove that the Goins family brought turpentining to Rosewood and that they were the second largest holders of land in Levy County. Only surpassed by the McCoy family.

Question: So, this land was owned and not leased?
Respondent: This land was owned, originally it was leased, originally all the land that the Goins family would lease they would then eventually buy. They would buy as much land as people would sell them. When this particular, as you all refer to it, incident, holocaust or massacre took place, the Goins family effectively was deprived of the continuation of the turpentine industry in Rosewood. And as a matter of fact, there is testimony to the fact that not only did they want to return to Rosewood and continue in the turpentine industry but was prevented from doing so by the people in Levy County.

Question: That's a point that we would like to kind of follow. Is there any documentation in terms of letters that the family wrote to Levy officials asking to get their land back. Was there any kind of correspondence that we could use to document that.
Respondent: I don't have anything like that. I can say that I am aware of, I am personally aware of family members from the Goins clan physically going to Levy County asking to look into the records and being physically being driven away at gun point. I can attest to that fact. And there are others today that can attest to that fact. This didn't just happen back in 1930 or 1940, this happened in the 1960s and the 1970s that we were forced out of Levy County at gun point.

Question: Mr. Doctor, in 1923 was the turpentine industry still a very thriving industry for the Goins family?
Respondent: Yes it was. In order to have a thriving turpentine industry, all you needed was an abundance of pine trees. And Levy County is today and have always been just a pine haven Not only did they turpentine in Levy County, in Rosewood I should say, but they were true businessmen in that sons would venture out into other surrounding areas and set up small turpentine operations to booster the Rosewood project.

Question: So, the turpentine industry was the main industry that employed most of the residence of Rosewood?
Respondent: Yes, Goins Quarters, which is located on the map here, had approximately 20, no these were quarter houses, you understand what I mean when I say quarter houses? They housed approximately 40 to 50 workers. And these people, many were not a resident of Rosewood but most were. People from other surrounding areas, anyone that worked for Edmond and Martin Goins lived in Goins Quarters because they were required to be immediately available. They worked long before sun up and after the sun was down.

Question: Mr. Doctor, do you think that of the people you know, of course, that some of the people were trappers and did other things, and I think you know, beyond that the labor force there was with the Goins Turpentine operation, but did not a great number of them also work at Sumner at the mill.
Respondent: Exactly, they did. I would say that probably one third of the men in Rosewood worked at Sumner at one point or another at the saw mill. There were people that were trappers and mill workers. Rosewood was unique, these were people who were not afraid of work. And like many people today, people had more than one form of occupation. Many worked at the sawmill and still earned a living at trapping and hunting. So, that wasn't unusual. What we call moonlighting today, was a way of life then.

Question: What about the women?
Respondent: The women for the most part raised the children. Other than raising the children, women like my grandmother and one of her sisters, whose name was Honey, there were two members of the Carrier household that graduated from Edward Waters School/College. It was a two year college and they came back to Rosewood to teach. And that was their profession in Rosewood, educating their children. The other women were very active in church activities and as I said, my great grandmother contracted to do washing and ironing for the people in Sumner. So, the women, although they did all those things to earn money, they were basically, someone had to raise the children. And the men definitely, during that time, unlike today, during that time men were working. So the women had a full-time job doing two things: (1) raising children and secondly, bringing what income they could from poultry eggs or from canning fruit or whatever. So they went to the depot, on the train, and sold it there.

Question: I would like you to clarify something for me that's puzzling, I think I understand it but I'm not really sure that to be employed by the Sumner mill, you could as Cyprus above and beyond the turpentine, that some of the people in Rosewood worked at the mill but some of them went into the woods and cut the logs and did that for awhile. Were there separate work forces, or did they do both, how did that work?
Respondent: Separate work forces. The Carrier and the Goins clan were very instrumental in logging. The Goins clan was primarily turpentiners, the Carriers, the Edwards and certain Goins members also set up a logging industry. And they would sell the logs that they got to the Cyprus Company. So, these were very thrifty people. And apparently, they would go out in the woods during the first of the week and not come home until the end of the week.

Question: I thought that was the way it was, and I was trying to put it in perspective.

Question: Okay, that gives us an idea of the overall complexion of the community. Can you from what you recall from your mother, I think, your great grandmother, tell us about how the Rosewood incident started.
Respondent: My mother and my great grandmother had walked from Rosewood to Sumner, which was about a mile and a half or two miles away. Sumner, as I said was a predominantly white community. They had traveled to Fannie Taylor's home. Pre-dawn, this was pre-dawn, they were in the process of making a fire around what was called a boiling pot when they heard the train come in and they knew that very shortly, from previous experiences that there would be a visitor in the Taylor's house very shortly. Ms. Taylor's husband worked at the sawmill in Sumner, and he always left prior to the dawn, and you know about sawmill workers, they work before dawn and after dawn. They saw a gentleman approaching the house, he walked in, he was a white gentleman, yes, they had seen him on several occasions before, he was Fannie Taylor's secret lover. They knew who he was. Again, understand that this was a woman that was a prisoner in her own home, a young girl, you know, she was fourteen years of age at the time of this particular incident. They heard an argument pursuing. My grandmother walked over to Sarah Robinson Carrier, my great grandmother, and my great grandmother, Sarah Robinson Carrier, walked over to the window and looked in, my mother saw the verbal exchange at that time

Question: Your mother's name was Philomena?
Respondent: Yes, Philomena Goins. They saw this verbal argument pursuing and it escalated into a physical confrontation on the part of her male companion, supposedly she slapped him and then attacked him. He looked pretty bad, casually walked out the back door. Prior to him walking out the back door, my great grandmother and mother walked back over to the boiling pot and continued to prepare to do the wash.

Question: Was the boiling pot in the yard?
Respondent: Yes, the boiling pot was in the yard. I would say, from the way that my mother explained it, I would say about 10 or 15 feet from the kitchen window.

Question: What you are telling us is based on your mother's description of what happened.
Respondent: As he walked out through the gate, he was not in a real big hurry, he only got into a hurry after he got outside the gate. He began to jog toward the track and down the track. According to my mother, approximately thirty five to forty minutes passed. I guess that was all the time that Ms. Taylor needed to notice the condition she was in. She came out of the house and. began to start streaming and yelling that she had been attacked, after a period of time.

Question: Fannie Taylor
Respondent: Fannie Taylor did. Other neighbors came by and asked her what happened and she said that a Black man had attacked her. She said a Black man. She used a word that was very common since Reconstruction. My great grandmother who was a well thought of person in Levy County and especially in Sumner and Rosewood, they all called her Aunt Sarah. I'm talking about the white population. They called her Aunt Sarah and they called her that affectionately, she was well liked, well loved. And she walked over to interrupt and give the truth of the matter. And she was admonished by Fannie Taylor asking her to leave. She was directed to leave. She was forced to leave. Her and my mother left, and went back to Rosewood, informed the family of what had happened and I guess just forgot about it. The only person that took it very serious and knew that something would happen was Sylvester Carrier, my great grandmother's son. He supposedly made the statement that if she accused a black man there would be people coming down the tracks , you know, to cause a problem. My great grandmother felt because of her reputation that would not happen. But, in fact, it did happen.

Question: How, in 1923 when this happened, how old was Sylvester Carrier?
Respondent: Sylvester Carrier was a full grown man. I would say, probably in his mid to late twenty's. I don't know exactly. I would say and I qualify that because I knew Sylvester's sisters, Mellon and Annie, Aunt Beauty and Aunt Swed we eventually called them. I grew up with them. Not with them, they were adults and I was a child. But I knew them affectionately, they taught me, they trained me, they molded me. They talked about their brother, Sylvester, all the time. Sylvester was a protector of the family, always had been. So, and supposedly, Sylvester was a middle child so, I know that my Aunt Beauty, at the time of the incident would have been in her thirties. So, Sylvester would have been somewhere in his twenties. That's the way I qualify that. But eventually the people did come down the track and they did begin to assault the black community. They first went to Aaron Carrier's house.

Question: What was the relationship between Aaron Carrier and Sylvester?
Respondent: First cousins. They were first cousins and they lived not very far from each other. The Carriers, when you look at the legal description of the land as to where the different Carrier households were, they were both very close to the railroad tracks. Not very far from each other. But Aaron Carrier was a 32-degree mason, he was a masonic origin and the gentlemen that attacked Fannie Taylor, although he was white, he was a mason. He had came in on the train and didn't have a way to get out of Rosewood other than someone giving him a ride out of there, because the train only came in twice a day, in the morning, in the evening. He employed, he asked Aaron to get him out and he assisted him. One masonic brother to another one.

Question: Can I add or say what some of the things that I have found in trying to get the source, let's say that this is a white man, now somehow, and I can't tell you how many newspapers, and I also read the deposition, that the white man went first to the home of Sam Carter, a black man. Let me just run through it and you can correct me. He went to Sam Carter's home and Sam Carter was a black man, and also was a mason, and he sought help from Sam Carter. Sam Carter said alright I will and hitched his horse to a cart or wagon then went to Aaron Carrier and said that here is a brother mason and he needed some help and that Aaron said alright and in fact gave him a meal and then the three of them went on the wagon into some sandy road into Gulf Hammock. And somewhere came to a river or gulf or whatever and that the white man escaped in a boat and then Aaron came back to his house, Sam Carter went back to his house, and after that the posse-mob went to Aaron's house and then went beyond that and then went to Mr. Carter's house and there shot him and killed him or either brought him back into Rosewood and hanged him and shot him. What's wrong in that sequence of events?
Respondent: What actually happened in my representation comes directly from Aaron Carrier, and his brother whom I've visited on numbers of occasions and this is Aaron's account

Question: What's his brother's name?
Respondent: His brother's name is Lonnie Carroll, he changed his name and he is an invalid today. He cannot articulate anything. He changed his name to Carroll. His name use to be Hill Carrier. He changed it to Lonnie Carroll. He is presently living today, as a matter of fact I got a sworn affidavit from him during the time that he was able to articulate what had happened. But Aaron Carrier representation of this is that the white gentleman came to his house first. Informed him that he needed transportation out of Rosewood and alluded to the fact that he was in trouble because of a particular incident that happened down at the Taylor's household. Again, he was a mason, Aaron was a mason. Aaron went outside, Aaron did not want to take him away because for whatever reason, I guess it was fear or whatever the reason was as strong as his obligation to the masons were he did not want to take him away. Aaron got in a buggy, a horse and buggy and went to Sam Carter's house and got Sam Carter.

Question: Well, did the white man go with him to Carter's house?
Respondent: No he did not. He stayed at Aaron's house. Aaron bought Sam Carter back. Sam Carter came out of Aaron's back door, went across the fence, jumped on the back of the wagon and Sam Carter took this white gentleman out of Rosewood. When the mob came down to Rosewood, the dogs followed the scent into Aaron Carrier's house, through the house, out of the back door, to the fence to where the white gentleman got on the buggy and that's where the scent stopped. And they knew that something had happened to make those dogs loose that scent. Where upon, they turned to Aaron and demanded an explanation, which he did not give them. Aaron was then tied to an old Model "T" Ford or some type of a vehicle and drugged for approximately a mile or two, then beaten and threatened with death before he actually told them who took the gentleman out of Rosewood. At that juncture, supposedly, Robert Elias Walker's son, this is the sheriff of Levy County, who was very fond of Aaron, for whatever reason, supposedly got the guy's attention, distracted him or whatever, and got Aaron away from them. Supposedly, he took Aaron to Gainesville and actually had him incarcerated for his own safety.

Question: Well, have you ever heard that and I have heard that part I am aware of that Sheriff Walker, himself, or his son, or his son or a Mr. Pillsbury, you have heard that?
Respondent: That's incredible, but supposedly this mob encountered Mr. Carter as he was coming back and stopped him on the road and questioned him.

Question: Carter had delivered him to safety, or whatever, and he was coming back home, right?
Respondent: Exactly. And they demand that he tell them who he took out and he would not; they demanded that he tell them where he took them, he did not; they then advised him that if he did not talk that they were going to kill him and supposedly his words were "You can kill me but you can't eat me." Those were supposedly his exact words. Where upon, they ascended upon him, beat him, strung him up to a tree, let him hand there by his neck for a while, not killing him, let him down, hit him in the head again a few times, hung him back up again and shot him.

Question: At his house, or did they take him to Rosewood?
Respondent: This was in Rosewood and supposedly you could see this from the upstairs bedroom of the Carrier's household. Supposedly they chose a tree that the people of the Carrier household could see very easily what was happening. And they left him hanging there for a couple of days, two or three days.

Question: Was that the first death?
Respondent: That was supposedly the first death.

Question: How many days passed before there were reported other deaths? Was there a span of time between Sam Carter being killed and someone else?
Respondent: It started with Sam Carter and the following day they heard that they had caught Jessie Hunter who was an escaped convict who they thought was an unidentified man that had attacked and robbed Fannie Taylor and later on, it was only four days it went from being attacked and robbed to attacked and raped. At least four days passed before the rape part of the story came into being. It was on that fourth day that they descended upon the Carrier's household. So, there was at least three days before they even descended upon the Carrier's household. There was a reason for that.

Question: One thing, let me ask you this Mr. Doctor that others noted. Was it coincidence or somehow did this white man have knowledge, or was he acquainted with people of Rosewood, or was it a coincidence that he happened in the Aaron's house and here was a fellow mason, had he known him previously or was it just an accident?
Respondent: I was told that he had known him previously. In fact, I was told that this white gentleman would sometime come in off of the train and after visiting with Fannie Taylor would either spend his time at the depot waiting for the train to come back through or spend his time with members of the Black community who he had a fraternal relationship with. That was an unusual thing for a white mason and a black mason to have a fraternal relationship. But it was a normal thing within the Black community and even when I was a child it was a normal thing for a Black mason to honor and respect a white mason, but the reverse was not true.

Question: Did anyone mention a first name or last name of this gentleman?
Respondent: Not at that time, I'll tell you what came to my attention after I gave an interview to the Tampa Tribune. Susie Seagall of the Tampa Tribune gave a gentleman my telephone number, he called me several times without identifying himself, he finally got me and he said "Mr. Doctor, I have information about Rosewood that would be beneficial to your family", he said, "I can even tell you where the mass grave is and I can identify the persons that you all talk about when you talk about Fannie Taylor's lover". And he ended by saying, "I've caused the family too much trouble and I want to rectify it." He said, "I was a friend of Fannie Taylor", I said "What's your name?" When I asked him his name, he said "my name is Charles Reed", and I'm sure there is no relationship. He said that he lives in Zephyrhills, Florida and he said that he had contacted the Holland and Knight Law Firm before, he said that he had contacted the papers before, he said that he had contacted Michael McCarthy and he was trying to do a film about this thing before, and no-one had followed-up with him and he said that he had gotten a set of remains from this grave and took it to a professor at the University of Florida in Forensic and that he had ran tests on it and determined that it was a forty-five year old Black male. For whatever reason, he gave the remains back to this gentleman, I don't know, that's where I have a problem with this story. But allegedly he took the remains back to the Cedar Key area and deposited them where he got them from.

Question: Did he ever give a name of this White gentleman?
Respondent: No he eluded to the fact that, I got the impression that he was talking about himself. He identified himself as Charles Reed of Zephyrhills. As a matter of fact, I could not get a telephone number from the gentleman, he hung up before I could get a telephone number. As a matter of fact, I told my attorney about it.

Question: What year was that?
Respondent: This year. It happened this year. It happened in 1993. I gave the interview in April of 1993.

Question: Well, he sure was anxious to tell you, wasnt he?
Respondent: Oh, he would be an older fellow. He would not be the only white gentleman that I talked to. You have to understand, understand this, she was only 14 years old at that particular time.

Question: Mr. Doctor, how do you know that she was 14?
Respondent: Supposedly, this was vindicated by two different people. Supposedly by Pete Gallagher and supposedly by a member of your committee, Tom Dye.

Question: Let me just tell you this, this what I found last week. I checked the marriage records in the courthouse in Branson and its possible what's you saying may well be true, but her name is Francis Coleman. Coleman was married in 1915, this was 1923. If she was 14 in 1923 that's six years, she would have had to be 8 years old when she got married or 9. It's so complicated.
Respondent: You know, there is one thing that's not complicated at all . It's not complicated that there was murder, assault and eradication of a people from their legal property. That's a fact. It's not complicated at all to determine that these people did nothing to warrant their attack. That's not complicated at all. We can use all types of analogies or all kinds of ways of going about finding it difficult to get certain specifics, but the act took place, the act wasn't warranted it was a violation of my family's 14 Amendment rights under the Constitution of the United States and that's not complicated at all. And at this date, its only been limited action by our State Legislators to address it. Now, I find that an insult.

Question: Now, Mr. Doctor, what role did John Wright played?
Respondent: The information that I received, Mr. Wright was a very good God-fearing man. I look at him as being a good man and a prudent and a true business man. Because Mr. Wright was doing two things, if he's God fearing, good and I applaud him for what he did. But his interest was in the Black community, that's where he made his living. That's who shopped at his store. Those were the people who gave him the revenue that he was able to build his nest egg with. So, I feel that it was in Mr. Wright's best interest to do as much as he possible could to protect those African American citizens and he did an outstanding job and I commend him for hiding members of my family in the basement of his store during this carnage.

Question: Let me ask, in my mind, his store was not his house, but they were right by each other. How do you understand that? The store and where his home was? Was they one in the same or were they separate buildings?
Respondent: My information is that they were adjourning structures, so to speak. Not nearly as elaborate then as it is now, but they were adjourning structures.

Question: Did he somehow call officials to get a train into Rosewood after the mayhem continued, and to get women and children, and its my understanding someone must have stated that no males were allowed to board?

Question: It's been alleged that Mr. Wright was responsible for that and if he was I commend him again for that, but I'm somewhat inclined to believe the Bryce brothers were responsible for that. They were a couple of brothers out of New York that come down to Florida to make their living, they were Jewish people and they had some sort of enterprise in the Levy area, they were entrepreneurs in the Levy area. And it was my understanding that they had a very close relationship with the people that owned the Seaboard Railway. Supposedly, there was a joint effort by Mr. Wright and the Bryce family to get the train to come in. And yes, it is a fact that the with the mob in that area, after they had been killing for approximately a week, I guess some of them consciously began to take hold and they said okay if the train comes in only women and children would be allowed. By that time they were aware of the fact that the soldiers from Camp Blanden, Florida; and these were regular soldiers who were on their way to Rosewood, not National Guards, I know its been supposedly reported that they were National Guards. My information was that they were regular army troops from Camp Blanden, Florida that came in and stood guard. And these men were certainly sacrificed to that mad mob. They were sacrificed in order to get the children and women out. No men were allowed to board that train. If any man boarded that train, it was understood that the mob would attack that train, soldiers or no soldiers.

Question: How did this incident escalate so much in terms of law enforcement, were there any individuals who contacted the Governor, you know, what position did the Sheriff and the County take, did the law enforcement officers in the county feel that they could control the incident?
Respondent: Sheriff Elias Walker was contacted by then Governor Gary Hardee and questioned as to what was the extent of what was happening in Rosewood and if in fact there was need to send in the National Guard. Elias Walker allegedly said to the Governor "I can handle it but you use your better discretion, do what you think is best." Essentially what the Governor did is he went hunting and fishing. That's documented that while the Governor knew that there were an explosive situation going on he decided to hunt and fish and the state officials and the county officials did nothing to stop the murder or the mayhem.

Question: Let's back up here a little bit, after Carter's death, the mob disbursed?
Respondent: Yes, they disbursed from that particular area. But, they went out looking for other black men to attack. This is how they came upon Jessie Hunter, the escaped convict.

Question: So, they did find Jessie Hunter?
Respondent: According to Black people, people that I have talked to, they tell me that they came upon Jessie Hunter in the woods and hung him and that was the end of Jessie Hunter. Supposedly, after they hung and killed him, they took him down and threw him out in the swamps supposedly to get rid of his remains, they threw him into the swamps where the gators were.

Question: Now, what point did they go back to the Carrier house?
Respondent: They didn't come to the Carrier house until after the third day of violence, the fourth day they came to the Carrier household (January the 4th on a Thursday) that afternoon when they approached the Carrier household. When they first came there they just said that they were just going to come in to search to see if someone was there. Sylvester told them they were not going to come in anywhere and search anything. An argument ensued, and they didnt really attacked right then, they left and came back in a matter of hours and they ordered my great grandmother out of the house.

Question: Her name was?
Respondent: Sarah Carrier

Question: Where was Hayward?
Respondent: Where was Hayward Carrier? I don't know, I have been trying to ascertain that myself. Now, I heard a lot of things about what happened to Heyward. Some say he wasn't there, some say he was there. I heard that Heyward had died before then or had been killed'before then, I don't know. There is a couple of people out there who can probably tell you where Heyward was. But at any rate, Sarah Carrier, went to her window, upstairs, opened the window and yelled out to the mob, many of whom she had nursed as babies and they respected her, she was a Black woman who was well received and it wasnt anything strange for her to verbally chastise young white men, okay, because it was that kind of relationship. And that's what she was actually doing, chastising them verbally Polly Wilkerson turned, shot and killed her.

Question: Who was Polly Wilkerson?
Respondent: Polly Wilkerson was an individual who had been appointed to be what you would call a law enforcement official, a quarter boss, if you will in that particular area. He was appointed by the Sheriff, Elias Walker, to be Walker's deputy, if you will.

Question: Wasn't he in Summer wasn't that where he operated from. He was in charge of the mill quarters and worked in Sumner, that's what I understand.
Respondent: Yes, you are right, because in Rosewood, the Goins and the Carriers were the law. See 'cause they owned all the property and they had a quarters there. But when Polly shot Sylvester's mother, he then decided that he and his deputy, Andrew were going to come and just take anyone that they wanted out of the house, or just kill whom ever they wanted and they essentially walked in, kicked the door down and when they did they died. Sylvester killed them on the spot.

Question: Had Sylvester been warned that they were coming?
Respondent: On the third day, they sent Sylvester word they were coming for him, now there is a reason behind that too. Sylvester was an individual that, if his sisters, I'm talking about Aunt Beautie and Aunt Sweetie, were people that I grew up with, they were my aunts, they shaped and molded me. If Mellon or Annie were in Sumner for whatever reason, and a white gentleman insulted them, insulted their ladyhood or what have you, even though this was supposed to have been Post Reconstruction, Sylvester was the kind of guy to go to that white gentleman's house, back during that time, call him out and challenge him and tell him if he did it again, you are going to answer to me. That was Sylvester's nature. It was said that he didn't have a scary bone in his body, he was just a man in every sense of the word. And also, his wife Gertrude was extremely light, almost like white if you will, that was frowned upon in that particular area. So, they had two things about Sylvester that they didn't like. Number one they felt that he was sleeping with a white woman, and number two, what I would call a strong self assured person, Black or better worse, to him he was an uppity nigger. So they had reason to want to harm Sylvester. And they sent word to Sylvester, after they had been killing for awhile, they sent him word saying he was next, they were coming for him next. So, Sylvester sent word back to them that he wasn't going anywhere and that he'll be there waiting for them.

Question: So it really went beyond Jessie Hunter being lynched?
Respondent: Yes, he had been lynched for a couple days.

Question: And it just continued and Sylvester became a target because of his independence, because of his position?
Respondent: What happened at Rosewood to Sylvester and all the other Blacks, is in my opinion, that it happened because there was an element from Sumner, from Perry and Bronson who were looking for an excuse to eradicate a people from their property because those people, quite frankly, were living a better lifestyle than the people in the surrounding area. And they were looking for an excuse and they got an excuse.

Question: Were the Carters and the Carriers kin?
Respondent: Yes, everybody in Rosewood was related. That's a very sore subject, but everybody in Rosewood was related. And I say that in all humbleness, it was a very small community and people intermarried, everybody in that room in there are cousins. And we have about 8 or 9 different families that are in there right now and they are all blood related.

Question: Do you know what happened to Gertrude?
Respondent: Gertrude remarried a gentleman in Gainesville by the name of Rev. Alexander who have passed on. And its my understanding that Gertrude is still living, as a matter of fact I think she is living somewhere around 1642 Southeast 13th Place. I think her phone number is something like 376-7880.

Question: Mr. Doctor, that leads me to another question, where did the Rosewood survivors finally settle after the Rosewood incident. I know that they scattered and some probably settled in Gainesville, but did they end up outside the state or in other counties within the state?
Respondent: Initially, when they left Rosewood, the train dropped them off in Gainesville where businessmen and relatives gave them provisions and they were only in Gainesville, the bulk of them was only in Gainesville I would say a maximum of a month where they moved on to different parts of Florida, Miami, Tampa, Lachoochee, Palatka, Brunson, as a matter of fact, you guys really think this is sort of strange, but Sylvester escaped Rosewood and he went to Bronson.

Question: I want to ask you about that, do you not believe that Sylvester Carrier was killed?
Respondent: I know that for a fact that he was not killed. I know for a fact that we got Christmas cards from him every year, up through the year 1964 when we were finally advised that he had been given final rites in Baton Rouge. He had changed his name. I can even tell you how he escaped from Rosewood.

Question: Do you believe this?
Respondent: Yes, Sylvester was taken out of Rosewood by the masons. They had asked permission to come into Rosewood to remove the dead. Sylvester had exited the house prior to the house burning down and had been living in the wooded area hiding. He had gotten word someway to his masonic brothers and they came in with coffins, essentially, and they were just throwing people in coffins. Sylvester was buried with dead people in a coffin and taken out of Rosewood.

Question: That's incredible. What is the source of that?
Respondent: Well the source is Sylvester.

Question: Sylvester himself?
Respondent: The source is Sylvester.

Question: Do you have any of the Christmas c Js?
Respondent: No, my mother would have had those and she passed away and my sister destroyec ost of the old memorabilia Did you, yourself have any personal contact with Sylvester?
Respondent: I didn't have any personal physical contact with Sylvester, but I was with my uncle who is in here right now. When a gentleman came up to my Aunt Beautie, Sylvester's sister, and told her your brother said he wants to see you and he confirmed that he she told him where to go and she being afraid that there was a trick that there was someone from the white population that wanted to kill him another member of the family would not go. My uncle, who I am named after, his name was Amett and my name is Amett. He can attest to the fact that yes Sylvester sent for his sisters to come visit him and they would not go, before he left Florida.

Question: How could he just move to Bronson?
Respondent: He just moved way out into the woods of Bronson. He lived in a little shack. Supposedly it is still standing and when people found out who he was and what he was about supposedly he left and left Bronson and went to Texas, and left Texas and to Louisiana.

Question: Do you think his wife still knew he was alive? QUESTION/RESPONSE: I have no idea. Sylvester was not killed in the fire there on a Thursday evening, the 4th of January. Who was killed besides Sarah among the people inside the house. There was reported that Sylvester was. So, there was a corpse of a black man, have you ever heard anything about that?
Respondent: I don't know who was killed. I'm not going to speculate.

Question: How many, people do you think was in Sarah's house. We know Sylvester was, but beside Sylvester, do you have an idea?
Respondent: Yes sir, Sylvester.

Question: Did Sylvester live with his parents?
Respondent: No, he had a house but he still lived with his parents. You got to understand the Carrier family had a nine bedroom historic building. And everybody's home in the Carrier family was in that household. Now, Sylvester had a small place over behind the depot but Sylvester and his wife and all other adults that were still in Rosewood - it was like everybody lived in that household. You did not get away from that household if you lived in Rosewood. That was a very close nit family and they stayed there. Sylvester used his own properties for whatever reason, but he essentially stayed right there in the Carriers household. And as far as other men in the house returning fire, there was no other men returning fire, my Uncle Harry was loading the gun for Sylvester, but he was just a teenage boy. His name at the time was Harold Carrier, he changed his name to Harry Lewis. He died sometime in the sixties. I grew up knowing him also, and he also attended to the fact that only Sylvester was firing.

Question: What happened or where were the other black men in the community? Had they gone into the woods knowing what would probably happen?
Respondent: The Black men who worked at the sawmill, they were not even allowed to leave the sawmill. The Black men that were loggers heard about what was happening and decided that, realizing the situation, you know, so there was very little they could do when they got information as to the number of men that were armed so they moved through the brush to escape.
Respondent: By Thursday night, the incident was on Wednesday the first, by Thursday night it was pretty much depopulated, I mean that's my understanding.

Question: Mr. Doctor, I know you can't be exact, what was the approximate number of black and white people killed from that Wednesday to that Thursday, do you have an idea?
Respondent: I have ideas, but I hate to express that this is the number, but no one really knows, but I've got to believe that there were at least twenty or thirty blacks killed. I've got to believe that. I've got to believe that because there was proof of a mass grave that both blacks and whites have attested to. But I've got to believe that there was at least twenty or thirty blacks killed. As far as whites are concerned, my mother said to me that aside from Polly Wilkerson and Andrews that there were black men on the front porch, I'm sorry, white men on the front porch outside, on the side of the house and this is one of the reasons that when you all talk to Arnett Goins its incumbent upon you to ask him if there were any bodies laying out in the yard or the side of the house because he would only talk about those two men who know Sylvester killed inside the household. But if you question him about the men that were laying on the side of the house, in the yard, then you'll get a different count.

Question: How old was he at the time?
Respondent: How old was my uncle? Let's see, seventy-nine now, nine years old. My mother was 13 at the time.

Question: Any idea of the number of children in the Carrier household?
Respondent: Well, I don't know exactly, but I know there were at least five or six and probably more. There were five or six names that I know were there, there were probably more.

Question: Do you know what happened to Aaron, I know he was taken to Gainesville but what happened to him after that?
Respondent: I went to Aaron's funeral in New Smyrna in the sixties. I'm sorry in the 70's, the early 70's. Aaron died in the early 70's, we had his funeral in Smyrna. He lived right next door to his brother, Lonnie Carrier. I think Aaron's address was 477 Hickory Street in New Smyrna because Lonnie's address was 475 Hickory Street, but Lonnie is presently in a nursing home his wife is presently living at that address. But Aaron's house is still there, the shrubbery has grown all through it, it hasn't been knocked down or anything, the State haven't confiscated, why I don't know.

Question: Mr. Doctor, have you ever wondered, you always wonder about things, something with this magnitude, I wonder the role because sometimes these things are concerned and benevolent but on the other hand how unbelievable ineffectual law enforcement officials were. Was Polly Wilkerson scared that he was going to get killed, was it all out of control but he certainly if he was in charge of a quote posse', and the posse takes the law into it's own hand, he was not doing what I think the sheriff ought to be doing but there may be circumstances that I don't know about. Have you ever wondered about his role in all of this.
Respondent: Well, it was alluded that Sheriff Walker and his son assisted Aaron in escaping, if that's a fact, that's the only thing the sheriff ever did for the members of the black population in Levy County. Sheriff Walker was supposedly a person who would turn his head at any form of violence from the white community that was inflicted against members of the black community. And look at Sheriff Walker, and Levy County, the Nation at that particular time, post-reconstruction, not really caring about the 14th or 15th Amendment, I think that Sheriff Walker felt that it was in his interest to let these mad mob people do what they want to do.

Question: I just wondered, and I appreciate you telling me that. Another thing, have you ever heard this, Tom and I went down last week and we did go to Cedar Key, and we interviewed a white man there who was alive at the time, he was about five years old. But he said that he had heard that the Klu Klux Klan, of course, we know that it was strong in Florida, and particularly strong in Gainesville, he heard that the Klu Klux Klan was strong in Cedar Key and that he thought that because of the idea that it could have spread there, he said that he thought that he had heard that some blacks in Cedar Key were also taken on the train to safety to Gainesville. Have you ever heard that story?
Respondent: No, and I have a problem feeling that the Klan was strong in Cedar Key at that time.

Question: Do you feel that it was not strong?
Respondent: In Cedar Key at that particular time? At that time Cedar Key was a predominantly Black town. Did you know that?

Question: No, I did not know that, and I don't know the population figures but I do know he said, this white man who we interviewed, said that there was a very substantial Black population in Cedar Key at that time.
Respondent: Cedar Key was overwhelmingly Black at that time, so I can't see the klan being that powerful in Cedar Key because I know the Klan was not powerful in Rosewood. And I don't personally believe that it was the Klan that caused this massacre to occur. I think that these were just whites in the area who objected to the lifestyles of the blacks, who objected to the success of blacks. The Klan may have been apart of it but I would say that the majority of the people by far were regular citizens who decided to do their own thing in the Rosewood area.

Question: Could you accept this, some of the contemporary accounts say that the various posses or mobs that came in, a lot of them from outside, but also part of them were men who worked at the mill in Sumner and they were part of the posse in the day time but in the night time the posse was outsiders. Have you heard any of that?
Respondent: Yes, it has been eluded to that the white men that took part in the mob were from Sumner, Bronson, Perry, Chiefland and all surrounding areas and as far away as Georgia and Alabama. Some of those men had klan ties, again some of them were just people with racial hatred that just saw an opportunity to act out. And I don't think there was just a spontaneous thing that they saw an opportunity to act out their racist attitudes. I think they saw the goose that laid the golden egg, I think they saw Rosewood as an area that could enhance their financial welfare. They could run these people off, they could take their property, they could seize their property, they could seize their farms, they could seize whatever and that's basically what it was. I want this, this is a fertile area and I'm taking it. Now, this is what I believe happened. And I think the people are trying to put the face of just pure racism and just pure ignorance.

Question: I think there are economic motives.
Respondent: Sure, definitely.

Question: You had said earlier when we first started looking into the stories, that you heard one story from whites and completely different stories from blacks, but then were the two whites who validated the story still alive today?
Respondent: Yes, as a matter of fact there were more than two whites that validated the story of the blacks. As a matter of fact, there's a lady that a lot of people consider, you know, I don't want to say the wrong word, but I listened to everything that she said and sometimes it's a little contradictory, but at one point even Robin Rampess, editor of the Cedar Key Beacon made a statement that the claim that the blacks have was in fact true. Yes, the man was in fact white that attacked Fannie. The gentleman, who has passed away, who was in politics in Levy County as a young man at the age of approximately of seventeen who allegedly asked his father to take him to witness the mass murder alluded to the fact that in fact that there were no blacks involved in attacking Fannie Taylor. And the fact that he did see from seventeen to twenty-five bodies in this mass grave. Even the one guy who wants to paint us as being an evil insurrectable forrest, Jason McElveen, if you read his testimony very closely, you'll find that he even substantiate it, if you read his testimony very closely. He said things that he doesn't watch what he say but he even gives substance to how the whites came and there were a number of others.

Question: Do you have or know the names of the whites that corroborate the same side as the blacks. You mention that there were two whites that you had spoken with, are they able to talk with us or are they willing to talk with us?
Respondent: I don't know if they will talk to you or not. Quite frankly, I don't know whether they will tell you what they told me because what they told me they wouldn't tell me in the presence of the reporter, Gary Moore. But Wesley Thompson's uncle, Wesley Thompson lived near the old Rosewood Cemetery in a trailer. He has an uncle that took part in the carnage and he attest to the fact, to me. that in fact that it was a shame that it happened that his uncle and another individual, his name escapes me right now, who was a barber at the time of the incident, stated that Ms. Taylor's statement was in fact false.

Question: One thing, I don't know if you know this Mr. Doctor, I really wish we could have got him to talk to us, but James Taylor's brother is alive and they live in Cedar Key, they won't discuss anything, and even people who were friends and know him say he won't talk and we tried to get them to maybe say would you, and I was going to try see Senator Randolph Harvey, maybe he could but we got tied up but did you know his brother was still living?
Respondent: A lot of people was talking until it became knowledgeable that there was someone in the State Attorney's Office in the Civil Rights Division who felt very strongly that these people who were still alive who took part in the carnage as it relates to murder they should be prosecuted and when that word got out, people stopped talking. As a ma . of fact, Pete Gallagher alleges that a gentleman attempted to take his life when he found out about this because he had been going around spouting off about what he had done and what others had done and people started telling who that gentleman was.

Question: Have you heard anything about Fannie Taylor, her whereabouts, what happened to her after.
Respondent: Well, I heard a lot of conflicting stories. I've never been able to ascertain, to verify whether or not she is alive or dead or when in fact she did die or what have you, different people have said that she died, others said that she did not die, supposedly Tom has her dead because they found a death certificate on her or what have you.

Question: I can say this, Friday in the Levy County Courthouse that she and her husband bought land, in fact it was given to her by her mother and daddy, but they only paid $10 and they took other values into consideration in 1925.

Question: Where was this?
Respondent: It was in the Sumner area.

Question: I interviewed someone who said that they saw her in Gainesville in 1926.
Respondent: That's what so strange about 1925 is that you go through the deeds and the things that changed hands in 1925, a lot of property changed hands in 1925 that belonged to the Goins Family, the Carrier Family, the King Family, the Edwards Family and its been presented to us that these people did not receive compensation or they did not receive fair compensation. It was also presented to us that when the Goins land was sold supposedly, that it was sold under threat, if you will under duress. They were given an option, we know where you are and who you are and you sell it for this price or else. I would be very interested to see how much all the land was sold for. I know that there was a person who sold, who was responsible for selling the Goins land and the Goins representatives - my grandfather, my uncles never received any money from it. And I know that, I don't want to speak without solid evidence because it could be libelous but there are people in our political arena today that were very instrumental in seizing the Goins property or in coming into possession of the Goins property. The property that the Goins owned in Rosewood, I'm very leery about how they came to own that property. I know that when they put a piece of paper in the, a blank piece of paper, and the record said that they paid x amount of dollars for the land and there is not a bill of sale, this gives me feelings to be concerned. Can you find an official bill of sale with proper signatures affixed I want to see it because I didn't find it.

Question: Now, if I'm understanding correctly, the Goins family was contacted to sell this land and they sold it under duress?
Respondent: If they sold it, they sold it under duress. But, they were contacted and threatened in 1925. They were contacted and threatened to sell their property.

Question: From what you can remember, they never agreed to sell?
Respondent: Not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of. All I can say to you, and the thing that bothered me is that I got a piece of paper out of the records in Levy County, it was a blank piece of paper. It was not notarized, it was not dated, there was no official seal on it stating that the property was sold.

Question: Can we move ahead a little bit and talk about what happened to your family after they left Rosewood?
Respondent: My mother left Gainesville after being there approximately a month and her mother, came and picked her and my uncle and took them to Tampa. And that is where they stayed until they became adults, in Tampa. She attended school in Tampa, so did my uncle. Always, according to my mother, always afraid that any particular day that someone was going to come up and tap them on the shoulder and something was going to happen but basically they did not have a stable lifestyle because of what happened in Rosewood. And after I guess about four or five years in Tampa, they left town and went to Lacoochee, Florida.

Question: Why Lacoochee?
Respondent: In Lacoochee was the older members of the Carrier family. That's where Aunt Beautie and Aunt Sweetie was. That's where Uncle Harry was, that's where the older stabilized members of the family was. And what had happened was Cummer Sons and Cypress Company had moved from Summer to Lacoochee and many of the men that had worked for the Cummer Sons and Cypress Company in Levy County had migrated to Lacoochee. Many of the Goins men who were interested in logging, selling logs to Cummer saw again the opportunity to apply their trade. They could not turpentine, yet they attempted to on a small scale but the type of forestry just wasn't there for them but they applied their logging skills. And eventually, all the people that was in Rosewood ended up in Lacoochee.

Question: Including some Whites?
Respondent: Including Fannie Taylor as a matter of fact.

Question: But I would have thought the fear or that the reminder of what had happened in Rosewood, I don't know, it just seems as though the association with the Cummer Mill can be very easy to trace.
Respondent: As a matter of fact, supposedly there was that concern but it didn't really come to a full blown fear until Fannie Taylor and her husband arrived in Lacoochee at which time, very shortly after she got there she alleged that a Black man were molesting her or attempting to molest her and supposedly representatives of Cummer Sons and Cypress came to her and her husband and asked them to leave.

Question: Now, I was told by Mr. Pillsbury?
Respondent: I don't know, my father worked at the mill there in Lacoochee, I don't know Pillsbury at all.

Question: He was the white gentleman who was in charge
Respondent: I had heard that and he comes out very favorable.

Question: Did the Pillsbury family helped to hide the Rosewood people?
Respondent: There was a number of whites that helped blacks escape, otherwise they would not have escaped. There was a number of whites responsible for that.

Question: Mr. Doctor, another thing, I just happen to think about, do you know all of it is so senseless, the people who had nothing to do with anything who was killed but Mingo Williams he wasn't even around, he was up there around Boston or somewhere or just outside of here and he was killed. I've read somewhere that supposedly the groups coming from Gainesville shot him and all kinds of things but can you enlighten us on that?
Respondent: No sir, I can't. I heard that he was killed, but why he was killed, I don't know. But, not only he was killed but a number of Blacks supposedly had been killed as far away as, I can't think of the name of the place now, in the Rosewood area, yes, Wylly. There was a train drop off place there in Wylly. Now supposedly this gentleman that Fannie Taylor was seeing also what caused the fight between he and Fannie Taylor was because of a woman that he was seeing in Wylly. He was quite a character.

Question: Well, you certainly have enlightened me to a great deal.

Question: Have you been in touch with your, Gary Moore?
Respondent: I spoke to Gary about a month ago, the last time I spoke with him and he had assured me that he was going to come on board, I expressed to him my desire to have him come down and share his information with the fact finding committee, that's what I call you guys, and he assured me that Amett I really want to do that Gary said. When he and I initially went to Rosewood together he assured me that whatever it took to help bring this thing to a swift conclusion that he was going to assist in doing that. I said that it don't seem like you are doing that I hear that you are playing hard ball and I hear that you are saying that this is your story and other people saying its their story and I quite frankly told him that this is the families' story. That's the only people who can claim the rights to this story. But he assured me that he was going to come down and join you guys and share.

Question: I wonder if he will work with us.
Respondent: Gary is a very astute, brilliant writer, I think, but I think Gary is committed, contractually to 0. McCarthy, a gentleman who was trying to make a movie and is trying to line his pocket with gold at our expense, and I think Gary is contractually tied to him. This is just my opinion, I don't know this. I think that's basically the reason he can't move. I found him to be a very decent person while I was there.

Question: Do you think its an exercise in futility on our part to try to get various documents from him that we have identified Mr. Moore is to have certain documents and we called him, do you think, even if its a nominal kind of cost would forward us those documents?
Respondent: I sure hope that he would. Again, the only reason that I see Gary not doing this, unless he really snowed me, is that he has a contractual agreement and can not release anything to someone else. That's the only way I see him not doing it. But if he really did appear to be a very decent guy. Well, I give everybody the benefit of doubt,

Question: You've been very cooperative Mr. Doctor and we hope Mr. Moore will be as well.
Respondent: I understand that, again it was back to what I said before, I think he is contractually tied to someone, I think its for McCarthy.

Question: Who is McCarthy.
Respondent: 0. McCarthy is the gentleman who had spoken with Ms. Langley that's here and Lewis Davis who is recently deceased, he represented himself to the Holland and Knight Law Firm, he represented himself with information that was given to him by Gary Moore to the tune that there were only two survivors, Minnie Langley and Lewis Davis and he had their story and he wanted the Holland and Knight Law Finn to really go forth, they were going to make a movie about it and everybody was going to be happy but there wasn't going to make a lot of money. That gentleman effectively bamboozled Maximedia and a lot of other people out of money.

Question: Do you know him?
Respondent: He's made several overtures trying to get me to sign a contract with him but I wouldn't entertain him, I can detect a person off on the street with his character.

Question: Are you willing to share all documents that you collected with us?
Respondent: You are putting me in Gary's position. I will share with you what I have. Do you have a legal description of the land? RESPONSE: We have a plat map, and you have sent me quite a bit of information.
Respondent: Probably, everything that I have except a deed to property I'll love to share with you and I told you why. I have access to deeds to property that, there is no way for me to get access to this property these deeds without going into an area in the Levy County Courthouse that is totally off limits and only one person would have access to it and that person would probably lose his profession. So, there is no way we can get a copy of that unless that person authorizes it. If that person authorizes that, then he authorizes it under whatever means he authorizes it under. But it would point directly to him.

Question: But its in the Levy County Courthouse?
Respondent: Yes

Question: So, the deeds are there?
Respondent: Everything that you need, if you get subpoena power, you can authenticate everything that I have alluded to in the Levy County Courthouse in the basement.

Conclution: Let me say this, on behalf of the Rosewood Research Team, Dr. Rogers, Dr. Jones, and myself Larry Rivers, we thank you for the interview.

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