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Interviewer: Larry E. Rivers
Interviewed Mrs. Lillie Washington
at the Florida A&M University Black Archives,
Research Center and Museum on September 24, 1993.
Larry Rivers Brief Introduction: Hello Mrs. Lillie Washington! My name is Larry E. Rivers and I am most appreciative to you for allowing us time to talk to you about Rosewood and what happened in Rosewood in 1923.

Larry Rivers: Before we talk about Rosewood in 1923, I'd like for you to tell me a little bit about yourself, for example, when you were born, where you were born, your parents, and if you can remember, your grandparents.
Lillie Washington: I was bom in Rosewood and my mother left Rosewood when I was very young She went to a place called Wylly Florida that was two or three miles down the road. So she lived there for a time (a good while). I was around about nine years when she left there and went to a place called Lenin, Florida. That was not to far from Rosewood, and I was not in the riot. My mother got up one morning and she got to thinking about her family and she said, "The Lord has shown me where there was a riot in Rosewood - that something was happening in Rosewood." So, we were living with my brother-in-law and they had one of these telephones in there. It rings and so my brother-in-law says this telephone has been ringing all night and all day and I'm going to eavesdrop and see what's going on. So when they picked it up the white was calling from different places saying come on and help us to kill the Negroes out in Rosewood. My mother became worried and from time to time we would go out into the yard and play It wasn't far from the road It wasn't a highway, but it was a dirt road. We could see the white people in the trucks with their guns sticking up in the truck and cars right behind them This went on all day and all night and we would standing out in the yard looking. As time went on my brother in-law would continue to eavesdrop on the telephone and the conversation on the phone would be that they killed some of the Negroes in Rosewood. Then the first one came, my brother came up to the house It was Wesley Bradley. The next one was George Bradley and he came up. My brother-in-law gave him some clothes because his were wet They left and went to the railroad and Brice would come and pick them up as they flagged the train down. He would come and pick them up and take them over to Jacksonville and other places.

Larry Rivers: Now who was Brice? Was he a white man?
Lillie Washington: Yes he was

Larry Rivers: But he was in Wylly wasn't he? Did he own a lot of property in Wiley?
Lillie Washington: This Brice, he was the conductor on the train and so they(Brice and the train) had taken some Blacks on to Jacksonville and other places. Then it went on (the riot) and we began to hear all of those that were killed in Rosewood. Gene Carrier, he went to Sumner where his daughter was. She was afraid to let him in so she closed the door and these white folks grabbed him. So my brother says they (the white folk) carried him (Gene Carrier) on down to where this man he works for in Wylly.

Larry Rivers: Okay, who was your brother?
Lillie Washington: Buster Burns.

Larry Rivers: Now who did he save?
Lillie Washington: They asked the bossman (supervisor)! and he asked them to let his hands go down there and bury the dead. So Buster Bums says the white folks brought Mr. Gene Carrier to the grave and told him to get down and pray. So he got down and prayed and when he did they shot him over in the grave.

Larry Rivers: Did he dig his own grave?
Lillie Washington: No, they dug it for him.

Larry Rivers: How old were you when the Rosewood incident occurred in 1923?
Lillie Washington: I was about nine years old.

Larry Rivers: What can you remember about Rosewood in terms of the community, the homes, in terms of who owned what? Can you tell us a little about the day-to-day life in Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: Yes, my uncle George owned a two-story building right by the train station called the depot.

Larry Rivers: Can you tell us about other structures?
Lillie Washington: Ed Bradley owned a large home with cows, a wagon and horse My mother she didn't have anything down there. All she had was a house that she was washing and ironing for a lady called Ms. Daisy.

Larry Rivers: Now what was your mother's name? I want to know both your mother and father's name?
Lillie Washington: Mary and Frank Burns.

Larry Rivers: What did your daddy do? Some of the workers were employed in the Sumner sawmill, some were farmers, some were hunters who sold their game. I understand that some of the women would work as domestics in the homes of the whites by doing the laundry, which was not uncommon of a lot of Blacks during that period of time But what do you remember your father doing?
Lillie Washington: Well I can't remember exactly what he was doing but he was doing some kind of work.

Larry Rivers: Did your mother work for whites?
Lillie Washington: She would take in washing and ironing

Larry Rivers: How many brothers and sisters, Ms. Washington, did you have?
Lillie Washington: It was ten of us. Buster, Andrew, Darcus, Vernon, Andrew, Marthy, Josephine, Hemrietta, Flossie, Verley Bums.

Larry Rivers: Where did you fit in the family? Were you one of the oldest, in the middle, or the youngest?
Lillie Washington: I am the baby.

Larry Rivers: How would you describe Rosewood in terms of Blacks owning land, owning their home? Do you remember whether Blacks owned much in Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: On yes, it was mostly a Black place.

Larry Rivers: Would you say that out of every ten people you could count four whites in Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: I couldn't count the white people but it wasnt many. It was just a few.

Larry Rivers: So there weren't many white people in Rosewood in 1923? We have gotten different reports on the number living there.
Lillie Washington: Yes, I understand. I'm trying to tell-I will tell the truth. Now, Wright, he owned a big store there. And he was mostly for the Blacks. Ed and George Bradley owned a store but they did not have it when the riot started.

Larry Rivers: Did Mr. Hall have his store when the riot started?
Lillie Washington: Mr. Hall?

Larry Rivers: Mary Hall's father. They said that he had a two-story building that he sold caskets, ice cream, and he had the other store that was in Rosewood along with Mr. Wright in 1923?
Lillie Washington: I don't remember. I know he had a big place but I don't remember what it was.
Interviewer: I understand he was big farmer and he was a minister of sorts and was in the Baptist church.

Larry Rivers: Where would you say most of the Blacks in Rosewood worked?
Lillie Washington: Well, I could not tell you where they worked, but they were working.

Larry Rivers: Was Rosewood a thriving community, that is, were people doing different kinds of things. There were very few people just sitting around idle. They did a variety of things. Was it a busy working kind of place?
Lillie Washington: No, but most of them didn't work in Rosewood because it wasn't any work. They worked in Sumner, Florida.

Larry Rivers: So most of them worked at the Sumner sawmill, probably, right?
Lillie Washington: Then there was a turpentine still mill to.

Larry Rivers: Was that owned by a Mr. Goins.
Lillie Washington: The turpentine still mill, yes.

Larry Rivers: Did Mr. Goins own a lot of acres of pine fields where he worked his turpentine still? Would you consider Mr. Goins to be one of the biggest land owners in Rosewood regardless of color?
Lillie Washington: Sure.

Larry Rivers: Was there a place called the Goins Quarters?
Lillie Washington: Yes.

Larry Rivers: Do you have any idea of the number of people that worked for the Goins family?
Lillie Washington: No

Larry Rivers: Were there any churches in Rosewood in 1923? Black churches?
Lillie Washington: Yes, there were two Methodist churches.

Larry Rivers: But you don't remember any Baptist churches, etc
Lillie Washington: No

Larry Rivers: Do you remember a man by the name of Mr. Pillsbury?
Lillie Washington: No, I don't.

Larry Rivers: What about Polly Wilkerson, Henry Andrews?1
Lillie Washington: No.

Larry Rivers: Now tell me where you were at the time of the Rosewood incident? Were you in Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: No, I wasn't in Rosewood but we were not far from there. We could see where they were burning the houses. You know that we must wasn't very far when you could see the balls of black smoke from the houses.

Larry Rivers: After seeing the burning houses, what was the basic response of your parents when they saw all of this? Was it to go to the woods? Try to protect the home? What do you remember happening after you saw the burning houses down the road?
Lillie Washington: We just stood and looked at the smoke filling the sky. You could walk there to where the burning was occurring but it took time to walk there.

Larry Rivers: Were you a couple of miles from Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: Yes.

Larry Rivers: Was the place where you and your family lived still a pan of Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: No, it was one place where we first lived and it was called Wylly, Florida where my mother came to live and then we left there and went to Lenin, Florida.

Larry Rivers: At the time of the burning, what was the place called where you lived at the time?
Lillie Washington: Lenin, Florida.

Larry Rivers: There were Black women and children escaping into the woods in hopes of saving their lives from what was happening. Do you know of or recall who called the train to pick them up to take them to Gainesville?
Lillie Washington: Mr. Wright, the one that was running the store. Some of them went to his house and he carried them out to the train. Mr. Brice on the train said for all those that could come out to the railroad, he would pick them up and that's what he did. He stopped the train and picked them up.

Larry Rivers: Were just women and children allowed to board the train? Were there men on the train?
Lillie Washington: Women and children. The men mostly escaped through the woods.

Larry Rivers: Most of the men escaped through the woods, they did not board the train?
Lillie Washington: No, not that I know of. Some of them came to our house. I think about five or six of them came to our house. The next morning they went on out into the woods

Larry Rivers: How do you remember the whole Rosewood incident getting started? How did it began? We have talked about the burning, some of the Blacks escaping with the women and children boarding the train. Let's back up and talk about what happened and how it got started?
Lillie Washington: Well, it was white lady that claimed that someone had raped her. So that's the way it started. I couldn't tell you if the person that did the raping was white or black. Some say black, some say white.

Larry Rivers: After that alleged attack was well known, what happened after that, in your memory?
Lillie Washington: I can't remember

Larry Rivers: What do you remember about other people who wanted to get out of Rosewood? Were there a lot of people who had to leave? How many people, Blacks that is, lived in Rosewood in 1923?
Lillie Washington: I couldn't tell you how many lived there but mostly it was my people the Carrier's, the Bradley's, Edwards', and the Coleman's, who were of no relation to us.

Larry Rivers: Do you remember any of the Coleman's
Lillie Washington: Oh yes.

Larry Rivers: The Goins? Where did most of the people from Rosewood settle after the incident? I know some of them settled in Gainesville. Did they spread themselves out over the state of Florida?
Lillie Washington: Yes, some of them are in New York, Jacksonville, Hillard, Mississippi, Washington, Miami, and others.

Larry Rivers: Ms. Washington what do you remember about Sylvester Carrier
Lillie Washington: Sylvester, was in his house at the time the riot started A lot of people were in their home, but Sylvester was in the house and they had shot him the next morning. My cousin, his mother, they hadnt shot her so they asked her to come out. She said no I am not coming out because I'm going to die by my son. So they killed her too.

Larry Rivers: Who were the two individuals that died?
Lillie Washington: Sylvester and Sara Carrier

Larry Rivers: Did Sylvester kill any of those who were shooting into his house before he was killed?
Lillie Washington: Yes, he wasn't the only one. Some more Blacks killed those who were shooting at them also.

Larry Rivers: As far as you can remember, how many people were killed in Rosewood, both white and Black, by the time it was over.
Lillie Washington: I couldn't tell you about the whites but Sylvester, his mother, and Sam Carter were the first to be killed. There was a lady called Ms. Lexie who was killed at her table

Larry Rivers: Do you know Ms. Lexie's last name?
Lillie Washington: No.

Larry Rivers: Some people feel that Sylvester Carrier got out and wasn't killed and that he lived in Louisiana until 1964. Now your recollection of the death of Sara and Sylvester Carrier, is that based on what your mother said?
Lillie Washington: No, my brother told me.

Larry Rivers: How old was your brother at the time?
Lillie Washington: He was about 20+ years old.

Larry Rivers: And he is the one who told you about Sylvester?
Lillie Washington: He wasnt in the riot but he was not far from there. They asked him to go and bury the dead and he went down there.

Larry Rivers: What was your brother's name again?
Lillie Washington: Buster Bums.

Larry Rivers: As far as Blacks were concerned, do you think five or six Blacks were killed and no more than that?
Lillie Washington: Probably, yes.

Larry Rivers: We have heard people say there was a mass grave as though there were quite a few Blacks killed but unaccounted for. Have you heard this?
Lillie Washington: Most of them were whites. A lady came down looking for her husband and she never did find him.

Larry Rivers: The first two whites to die, were Henry Andrews and Polly Wilkerson, who were sheriff and deputy and they opened the door to Sylvester Carrier's house and he killed both of them and other whites were killed on the outside. Have you heard this claim?
Lillie Washington: Sara Carrier killed the sheriff.

Larry Rivers: Did she killed both the sheriff and deputy?
Lillie Washington: She killed one of them.

Larry Rivers: Who killed the other, Sylvester.
Lillie Washington: I was told that Cousin Sara shot one of the officers, I don't know who shot the other one. She was in the house. They were all in the house because they didn't want them to take what they had. What happened is that the shells ran out and that's why they had to get out because they didn't have anything left to shoot with.

Larry Rivers: Was this after the whites had gone and came back again? I understand they came first and the two white men were killed and then the whites gave out of bullets and they went back for reinforcements. Before the whites returned the second time to the Carrier's house did the women and children escape into the woods for the train to pick them up while Sylvester stayed in the house. When the whites were first at Sylvester's house, was his mother killed then, or was it after the whites came back a second time?
Lillie Washington: A second time.

Larry Rivers: So she was not killed when they came the first time even though they were shooting into the house?
Lillie Washington: No.

Larry Rivers: It was on their second trip that they gave out of bullets that she was killed along with Sylvester?
Lillie Washington: Yes

Larry Rivers: What did the governor and those who could have stopped this do. Do you remember how they dealt with this? Wasn't it Governor Hardee at the time?
Lillie Washington: I don't remember his name but he came up to the house late that evening and he told us that he wasn't going to hurt us. He just come to help us. So we had a long back porch where you come in at. The house wasn't far from the roadway. He said that when he come he wasn't going hurt us but to help us. He sat out on the back porch and took out some papers that had my brother-in-law to read them. He said he was there to stop the riot. If they didn't stop they would send troops into Rosewood. So he sat out on the back porch all that evening and all that night until the next morning.

Larry Rivers: This is the white man.
Lillie Washington: Yes, and he got up and he didn't come in the house and lay down or anything. He stayed out on the porch. The next morning he said I think the last car has come out from down there but I got to go back down the road to be sure because if it's not the last car then we will have to send in the troops. He got up and went out to the railroad and the last car came along and picked him upand carried him back down the road and we didn't see him anymore.

Larry Rivers: Was he a law enforcement officer?
Lillie Washington: Yes.

Larry Rivers: But he wasn't a part of the sheriffs department.
Lillie Washington: No, no. He was the United States Protector

Larry Rivers: United States Marshall But you don't remember his name?
Lillie Washington: Well, he told us his name but I can't remember.

Larry Rivers: What do you remember about the attack on Fannie Taylor? Was it by a Black man or white man?
Lillie Washington: Well, I don't know Some say white, some say Black.

Larry Rivers: But the one thing you remember very clearly, is that Rosewood was burning and you could stand at your house and see it. Now when you were standing at your house were whites in cars passing by where you were living, going further down into Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: They were going back and forth all day.

Larry Rivers: But they didn't bother you?
Lillie Washington: No, they didn't bother us but they would look at us. The fact of the matter is they could have shot us because we were just standing in the yard looking at them and they saw us.

Larry Rivers: They didn't say anything to you?
Lillie Washington: No

Larry Rivers: Were your family members afraid at that time?
Lillie Washington: No

Larry Rivers: When did you all realize it was important for you all to leave the area because of what was happening in Rosewood.
Lillie Washington: We didnt leave there until my mother moved to Gainesville

Larry Rivers: So, you stayed through the whole ordeal?
Lillie Washington: Yes, we stayed and didn't leave.

Larry Rivers: So you all did not leave Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: It seems as though they were not going to bother us and they didn't bother us.

Larry Rivers: This is interesting. Why did the whites seem to be so adamant about the Carriers. It seems as though if they had allegedly gotten Jessie Hunter, then the killing should have stopped. They had avenged whatever happened or at least said happened to Fannie Taylor Why would they seem like they were going after the Carriers?
Lillie Washington: Well, at that time see you don't know about it. You could not even look at a white woman. A Black man couldn't look at white woman even if they were just standing up and be thinking about it. If the whites feel that a Black man was doing that, they would kill him or beat him up. What happened when this man did that (the rape) whoever he was, he went to Samuel Carter's house Samuel Carter took him in the wagon to Aaron Carrier's house. When he back the wagon up he got out of the wagon and his feet didn't hit the ground. He went into the house and Aaron took him in the wagon and carried him down into the woods because that's all the far the dogs could track him. And that's why they were after Carrier. At that time they would kill the little babies also.

Larry Rivers: You mean children?
Lillie Washington: Yes, they killed them to The whole family.

Larry Rivers: Just everybody was wiped out?
Lillie Washington: Everybody in that family. They could have did us the same very way if they had known we were family people. They just didn't bother us.

Larry Rivers: Just didn't bother you? That's interesting because I thought that people in and around Rosewood had to get out of the community in order to save their lives You have just said something thai is absolutely fascinating in terms of watching them go in and out of Rosewood and looking at you physically and not harming you. Thank God they didn't, but it is interesting none-the-less.
Lillie Washington: We could stand on the back porch and look at them passing by and they would be looking at us on the porch.

Larry Rivers: Can you remember when you actually left Rosewod?
Lillie Washington: When I left Rosewood I was very young and can't remember my exact age

Larry Rivers: Do you think it was after 1930?
Lillie Washington: Sure, because after we left Rosewood, I went back down there to school

Larry Rivers: After the Rosewood incident, the burning of the homes, did most of the people move out of Rosewood?
Lillie Washington: Oh, yes.

Larry Rivers: Were there many Blacks outside of Rosewood in places like Wylly?
Lillie Washington: Well there were quite a few.

Larry Rivers: They still lived in Sumner and Wylly?
Lillie Washington: Yes

Larry Rivers: But no one wanted to live in Rosewood, per se?
Lillie Washington: You couldn't live there. You had better not go back down there.

Larry Rivers: If they had gone back down there, what would have happened to them?
Lillie Washington: They would have gotten killed, I'm quite sure.

Larry Rivers: Was Rosewood just vacant for a while?
Lillie Washington: Yes, it was.

Larry Rivers: No one tried to go in and farm and do anything?
Lillie Washington: No. It was a few of them that went down there.

Larry Rivers: When you say a few, who were they?
Lillie Washington: Susie White, she went down there and sold her property.

Larry Rivers: A few went back after the riot?
Lillie Washington: They went back down there to try and sell their property. I think they sold some of it.

Larry Rivers: They sold it to whites?
Lillie Washington: Yes. I was very small. They stayed in Wylly and Gainesville until they got half grown. From Rosewood, Wylly was about two or three miles, and Sumner was about five miles from Wyljy.

Larry Rivers: Rosewood itself was sort of vacant with very few, if any, Blacks living in that community but there were Blacks in surrounding communities of Rosewood that continued to live there. None of those Blacks were searched out to be killed, were they? It seems that the whites were after the Carrier family?
Lillie Washington: The Carriers and the Bradleys.

Larry Rivers: How did the Bradley's fit into this? I know Aaron Carrier was responsible for carrying away whoever this person was that allegedly raped Fannie Taylor How did the Bradley's fit in? Why were they upset with them?
Lillie Washington: They were related to the Carrier's.

Larry Rivers: If they were related they lumped them all into one group and went after them.
Lillie Washington: Right

Larry Rivers: You can't remember how many whites were killed?
Lillie Washington: No, I can't remember.

Larry Rivers: You know there were at least five or six Blacks killed?
Lillie Washington: Yes.

Larry Rivers: The whites. You say they were coming back and forth all day. Were they coming from Sumner and Cedar Key you think?
Lillie Washington: Who, the Blacks?

Larry Rivers: No, the whites who were going in and out of Rosewood.
Lillie Washington: I don't remember.

Larry Rivers: The whites you remember as you saw them going in and out, they were driving Model-T cars and were they in trucks?
Lillie Washington: Yes, old time Fords they use to drive.

Larry Rivers: How many did you count at one time going in or out? One, two or three cars loaded with people?
Lillie Washington: You just hearing the cars rolling by. At that time cars made a loud noise and you could hear them going down thee one behind the other in trucks and cars.

Larry Rivers: Would you say there were more than four or five?
Lillie Washington: Yes.

Larry Rivers: Just a bunch of them. Were any of the faces of those people familiar? Had they been in Rosewood before?
Lillie Washington: No They came from different places. Gainesville, Jacksonville, any place they called for them to come down there.

Larry Rivers: Do you remember any of them wearing any white uniforms
Lillie Washington: No.

Larry Rivers: They just dressed normally. The Rosewood survivors resettled all over Florida and that interesting. Ms. Washington, how many of your brothers and sisters are still living today?
Lillie Washington: None, I'm the only survivor.

Interviewer: I think those are all the questions I have and you have done an excellent job of helping me to piece this incident together. I have spoken with others, and all the information that I have seems to point to some common things that occurred in Rosewood, and I am glad we had an opportunity to talk. I am extremely happy that you are here, and I hope we have made your stay here as pleasant as we could possibly make it. This tape will be here in the Black Archives at the Florida A&M University and students in the year 2010 will come and listen to what Larry Rivers and Mrs. Washington talked about as a part of Florida's history. We are going to make sure as much as we can to include what happened in Rosewood and the surrounding areas in the history of Florida to make a well rounded balance history of Florida. You will be a part of that history, you are a part of that living history. Students who will come from miles around at this great university will know that a Mrs. Lillie Washington was a part of the Rosewood incident and that she had something to say based upon her recollection of that, and we are extremely happy that you have snared your recollections with us. I thank you again and your family members for making sure that you were able to be with us over the last couple of days

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